TRANSCRIPT:
Jay Owen:
Hi, and welcome to ‘Building a Business that Lasts.’ My name is Jay Owen, and I’m your host on a quest towards stories, ideas, and strategies that will help businesses last the test of time. Many businesses are started each year, but the number that lasts is a bit depressing. I hope to help turn that tide with this show.
Jay Owen:
I’m super excited today to have Sherry Davidson with us from Davidson Realty. Sherry is one of those people that I have respected and looked up to for a long time. She is the kind of person in the community that you want as a business leader. People like to work with her. People like to work for her. Her business has been around for 28 years, is that right?
Sherry Davidson:
28.
Jay Owen:
Which is really incredible. Being in the real estate business, they’ve gone through all kinds of ups and downs just because of the market. As a whole, and so I’m excited to have this conversation today to hopefully help those of you listening get some insights, and tips, and strategies, maybe hear some stories that’ll be inspiring to you to help you build a business that lasts.
Jay Owen:
We live in a world where it’s easy to start things sometimes, but it’s hard to finish well. It’s hard to maintain things over time. I couldn’t be more excited to have Sherry today. Sherry, thanks for joining us.
Sherry Davidson:
Thank you so much for the invitation.
Jay Owen:
Yeah, absolutely. As I said, you’ve been in business for 28 years, which is an incredible number. What I’d love to hear from you initially is how you got into the real estate business to begin with? What made you kind of make that move, and a little bit of your background that kind of led you into that world?
Sherry Davidson:
Well, my background is financial. I was a CPA. I have a masters in taxation. I really loved accounting, but I was very busy at times of the year when our family liked to do things; like go skiing, and so forth, because that was right during tax season.
Sherry Davidson:
My husband offered that I come to work with him. He was with [inaudible 00:01:53] corporation and real estate developer. He is a CTA. We have a chief financial officer. I wasn’t really sure how I could fit into the company. His answer was simple: ‘You’ll be our broker.’ I was like, ‘Okay.’
Sherry Davidson:
I went and got my real estate license. I went to work for [Marceline 00:02:13] in realty. I got my experience, became a broker. At the time, we were starting World Golf Village as a development. Set up the brokerage, did some realty, and went from there.
Jay Owen:
That’s awesome. So for those of you that may not know, or may not be familiar with the area, the World Golf Village sits kind of … It’s technically St. Augustine, but it’s far north of St. Augustine. It kind of sits right between St. Augustine and Jacksonville.
Jay Owen:
I lived out here years ago as a kid, and it was literally sticks and woods back in the day. It’s been amazing now. My family has made this our home, so it’s really been neat to see that grow. Sherry and Davidson Realty as a whole have been kind of a cornerstone of making that happen. Really neat if you’re in the area to kind of know some of that background and history of how that started.
Jay Owen:
One of the things you talked about there a little bit was family, and getting engaged with family. That’s one of the big things that matters to me. The primary title of the show is ‘Building a Business that Lasts,’ but the subtitle for me is, ‘Without sacrificing family.’ I think for a lot of people, it’s hard to find that balance. I’d love to hear you, because I know you have family that works in the business, too. Obviously you and your husband started out in the business. I know you have some kids that work in the business. Talk a little bit about that, and what that dynamic is like.
Sherry Davidson:
My husband handles the development part. I handle the sales, the realty, and the property management companies. It’s really interesting working as a husband and wife. We’ve had the company so long, my youngest son is 27. One by one, my children and I had no idea they would end up working with us, have joined it. My oldest son helps with technology. My daughter helps with marketing. My youngest son was an engineer, and then got his MBA, and now helps with the development side.
Sherry Davidson:
It really makes for an interesting dynamic. I sit around sometimes. I’m so happy to have them there. I’m so happy to be able to rely on them, because I have so much trust with them. On the other hand, sometimes when I ask them to do something, it’s like, ‘Is it mom nagging me, or is this my boss telling me to do something?’
Jay Owen:
Right. Yeah, sure.
Sherry Davidson:
It’s … fulfilled all of my dreams to be able to work with my family. All five of us are there together. It’s something I never imagined would be possible. It’s really interesting to balance work and family, because it’s … We’re passionate about what we do, so even when we’re out to dinner, my daughter’s trying to get me to sign a proposal for marketing.
Jay Owen:
I can see that. That’s awesome. I think that’s one of the things that’s really important to me. As you know, I have a bunch of kids. Mine are all little, so they’re not quite big enough to be involved in the business yet. My wife isn’t technically involved with the business, but I would say she’s my number one advisor. I mean, if there’s anything that I … the first time I deal with a struggle, or an idea, or a thought, she’s the filter that it goes through. I just greatly value that advice and insight. I think it’s really neat that you’ve been able to build a business, not only that’s lasted the test of time, but also has family involved with it.
Jay Owen:
It’s not easy. A lot of people struggle with that. People out there that have family, husband and wife teams, or kids involved with the business. I think you could have a whole separate probably conversation just on family in the business. It obviously has some huge benefits, but also some challenges along the way, too.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
Thinking about the amount of time that you’ve been in business, I think that’s one of the things that I’m most interested in kind of learning from others and helping others kind of see these kind of things over time of how you overcome particular difficulties, specifically in the real estate industry. I think about not that long ago, we went through a very … severe recession. There was a lot of fallout in the real estate industry, as you know.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
How do you make it through those time periods when you’re in a specific industry, and it feels like everything, from the outside, at least visually, is falling apart in the industry?
Sherry Davidson:
That was an extremely difficult time because the way … I always have a positive attitude. My faith is a huge component, I think, of how we run our business. When things got so difficult, I think you make every … You look back at things you could have done differently, and all the mistakes you made. Things were so good. We had done really well with the development of World Golf Village, real estate, sales were going tremendously. You get a little … lazy, maybe? You just may be a little overconfident that you … You don’t worry about the next copy or lease. You don’t worry about things that you think someone else in your company can handle. Then you look at some of the expenses that you could cut down.
Sherry Davidson:
I think when that downturn happened, even some of the brightest people I know in the industry thought it would be a couple of years and we’d be out of it. Again, you could kick yourself because we cut, but we didn’t want to cut anything that impacted our staff, or we didn’t want to cut anything that impacted our customers. Pretty much we cut what we could without really impacting things. It wasn’t near enough, because the recession lasted so long.
Sherry Davidson:
I remember going to realtor … particularly builder meetings, and I would think, ‘They couldn’t sell anything.’ No one was buying a house. At least we could sell short sales, and foreclosures. We were plodding along. They could sell nothing. It was the most positive, inspiring group of people that pulled together during that time. To this day, I just have amazing relationships in the industry because we all supported each other when times were so tough.
Sherry Davidson:
Now things are better, and I hope I never forget the lesson of paying attention to all the little expenses, because that’s what will get you is quit paying attention to the things you don’t think are big. They’re all big.
Jay Owen:
Yeah, my uncle and my grandfather before that always used to say, ‘Watch the pennies and the dollars will take care of themselves.’ I think that that is a tough lesson … One of the things that I’ve really been passionate about early on in business was either being debt free, or trying to stay as debt free as possible; except when you just really have to leverage things in certain situations. That’s helped us get through … weaker or tighter periods.
Jay Owen:
One of the things I think is awesome about you, too, and I browsed through your LinkedIn profile a little bit before I came, and read some of your testimonials on there. What’s neat about it, is that it’s not just people who have worked with you that are leaving comments, but people that have worked for you. Davidson Realty has multiple times won ‘Best Place to Work’ in all kinds of different areas. I’d love to hear from you with regards to the way in which you’ve decided to treat other people, and treat your team. What kind of strategies or ideas have you employed over time that have helped kind of solidify that unit and make people be willing to leave those kind of comments?
Jay Owen:
A lot of places, a lot of people hate Monday. One of my big things is, I don’t want people to hate Monday, you know? A lot of people hate their jobs. They don’t want to work, because they’re in environments where that’s not … It’s not a very positive place to go. So talk a little bit about that, and how you think of building a team, and what’s important to you in those areas.
Sherry Davidson:
One of things, like a core thing to me is people either have an abundance mentality, or a scarcity mentality. There’s plenty of business for all of us. I think we treat our competitors and our employees. … First of all, my employees and my agents, I know if I take care of them, they’re going to take care of our customers. Even with our … There are other real estate companies that will call me and they need a conference room. Their office may not be close to here. I always let them use the conference room. It’s like there is plenty of business out there for all of us to make a good living. I would just rather go through life cooperating with them, than … I don’t need their business. I don’t need to take business away from them.
Jay Owen:
Yeah.
Sherry Davidson:
I don’t need to take agents away from them. I just need to … I need to worry about my business, and my people, and take care of my team.
Jay Owen:
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things … I made a comment the other day on Facebook, actually, about people that worry about their competition too much. I think in real estate, especially from a competition standpoint, it’s saturated. You couldn’t be in a more competitive industry really, because everybody knows a real estate agent. Being able to stand out above the fray in that environment, I think that, that … what you’re saying is so critical in that this idea that we have to constantly worry about what other people are doing. If we’re always thinking about what other people are doing, we’re not thinking about what we’re doing.
Jay Owen:
I think for me, what I always say is, there’s plenty of people that do good work. You know as well as I do, you’ve got a ton of good agents. Davidson does an amazing job. There’s other people that do good work, too. Same thing for us. We build websites. We do brands. We do all kinds of stuff. There’s other people that do amazing work. Most of time for me, it comes back to relationship. Why do you want to work with somebody? It’s because of who they are, and what they believe, and why they do what they do. It’s not necessarily what they do.
Jay Owen:
There’s plenty of people that do a good job at whatever they do. I’d love to kind of hear a little bit of insight from you. You talked about faith. You mentioned family. To me, those are actually two of our six core values as a company. I’d love to kind of hear from you as far as that mentality of what drives your why as a company, and who you are, versus just what you do.
Sherry Davidson:
Well, our mission statement is value people first. I think it all starts there. I heard something the other day, and it just … It reminded me what would you do if you knew you wouldn’t fail? The point was, with God in your life, he’s got control of everything you’re doing. It’s all going to turn out through his plans. You can try things. You can go through things. I really think you can’t have a plan B. It’s like if you intend to make this work … For me, my whole family works there. If our company were to fail, there’s five of us without a job.
Jay Owen:
Right.
Sherry Davidson:
There is no plan B. You just do what it takes to make it work. You never accept that it’s good enough. You’ve got to always be … There’s always things changing in the world, and in our industry, and in our business. If you don’t try to stay up with what’s changing, and make yours better, you’re going to fall behind.
Jay Owen:
I love that. I love the simplicity of your mission statement, ‘Value people first.’ Our mission statement is actually way too long, and I think we’re going to shorten it. I love the clarity behind that. It gives you an anchor to hold on to. It gives you an anchor for all decision points. I think for companies out there who haven’t developed a mission statement, or don’t have what their core values are, those are things that I think I undervalued for a long time, and I didn’t really have in place. The more I heard from successful business people, they all had this kind of cornerstone of when a decision needs to be made, if we’re stuck within a rock and a hard place, we go back to that. Ultimately, the answer is ‘value people first.’
Jay Owen:
In that scenario, that doesn’t always mean you win. Sometimes you lose in those scenarios. I think that’s an interesting thing to think about of sometimes you have to make decisions as a business owner that cost you money, but it’s the right thing to do. Now, ultimately in the long run, we all have to be profitable or we certainly can’t stay in business for 28 years.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
What kind of situations have you had, or any kind of stories or thoughts behind that of where you had to make hard decisions that maybe weren’t in your best financial interest, but were the right thing to do.
Sherry Davidson:
I think I’ve always tried to make the right decision to make things right with anybody doing business with us. I do have to tell you there are some customers that are not reasonable. I don’t go that far. I’m going to back my team. They know that whatever they do, even if they make a mistake, I’ve got their back.
Jay Owen:
Yeah.
Sherry Davidson:
Now, that doesn’t mean I’m not going to take care of a customer; but if a customer’s wrong, … I’m just … pretty black and white. I’m going to try to do the right thing. It may not be every time to give in to the customer, but when I think the customer’s right, I’ll do anything in my power to give something back to them.
Jay Owen:
Yeah, I love that. I think that, that whole mentality, people say things like ‘The customer is always right.’ I just totally disagree with that.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
I think that if the customer’s right, we should do everything we can to make whatever we’re doing right. When the customer’s wrong, we can’t break our backs over that. Especially it won’t … I will never break my team’s back over a customer that is being unreasonable. Ultimately like you said, I mean you’ve been in business long enough to have plenty of situations where you deal with people that there’s nothing that you can do that’s going to make them happy. Sometimes you have to just let that person go.
Sherry Davidson:
Yeah.
Jay Owen:
I think going back to even your mission of valuing people first, that people is not always the customer. That people is your team, too.
Sherry Davidson:
That’s right, that’s right. There’s always of the threats of they’re going to say things on social media. What I found is those people that cause issues, most people around them know that they cause issues.
Jay Owen:
Yeah.
Sherry Davidson:
If they say something about our company, I can live with that. I just have to be able to look myself in the mirror every day, and if I think I made the right decision based on the facts, that’s what I do.
Jay Owen:
Yeah, and that’s … actually is a great segway into talking about social media, and just marketing as a whole; because you’re in a situation where you’ve been in business long enough that … When I started my business, it was kind of the beginning of the internet years. Social media didn’t exist. The iPhone didn’t exist. The internet was around. It was the very beginning, early stages of the internet.
Jay Owen:
With a company that’s been around for as long as yours has, you’ve seen that full growth from a technology standpoint. I’d love to kind of hear your perspective on how you’ve adapted to that over time. I think a lot of businesses have really struggled in those areas of ‘here’s what we always used to do,’ and getting into dealing with what’s happening on Facebook, and blogging, and emails, and website. You guys kill it on that. You actually just launched a brand new website, which I saw the other day. It looks amazing.
Sherry Davidson:
Thank you.
Jay Owen:
How have you transitioned over time into that technology world when you came from business prior to that?
Sherry Davidson:
I give all the credit for that to my children, because I trusted them so much that when they would ask me to try things. Peyton set up a Facebook account for me, my daughter, with me kicking and screaming. I love it now, but I stick to one thing. I mean people are on Twitter, or people are on Instagram. I just don’t have time for a lot of it. I do have time to interact on Facebook, so I try to do one thing well.
Sherry Davidson:
Honestly, she’s … Peyton convinced me to start doing videos. We were doing the little flip camera. They weren’t very professional. The truck was going by when we were standing in the yard. The people loved them.
Jay Owen:
Yeah.
Sherry Davidson:
We got all kinds of views. I think without the trust of my kids, because I’m not sure someone else could have convinced me of things I should try. I had so much trust in them that I moved through with it them. They were my guides.
Jay Owen:
Having other people around that are … That’s their strength.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
I mean I think a lot of times, I hear people talk about working on their weaknesses. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, but I also think at some point in business, there’s value in going, ‘Okay, these are the things I’m really good at.’
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
I’m going to do those things, and then I’m going to find other people who are really good at these other things, and let them do those things.
Sherry Davidson:
What are the things that only I can do?
Jay Owen:
Right. That’s a huge question for a business owner to ask.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes, and so I try to do the things I’m best at and only I can do. Honestly, I don’t spend a lot of time worrying about technology. I’m really bad to just call my son if something’s not working the way I want to, because I’d rather spend my time doing important things to me, than figuring out something with technology that I really don’t care about.
Jay Owen:
Yeah, absolutely. I think there’s a couple other things I just want to mention briefly that you highlighted on in that one was that I really tell people a lot from a marketing perspective … is to find a platform to focus on.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
I think what happens sometimes in this world is there’s so many things out there, from Pinterest, to SnapChat, to Facebook, to Twitter, to Instagram, to LinkedIn. The options of platforms are almost limitless right now. It creates so much noise, and it’s … When people try and do all of those things, they almost do nothing well.
Sherry Davidson:
Right.
Jay Owen:
I think that you’re wise to say, ‘Hey, I’m going to focus on Facebook.’ Also in our area, I would say especially in your demographic of business and everything else, it’s probably the most popular and the most valuable anyway.
Sherry Davidson:
Yeah.
Jay Owen:
Being able to focus on one place, say, ‘I can do this, and I can create relationships there.’ That creates a lot of value. Because really to me, I think the biggest mistake that people make with social media in general is they try and turn into this sales vehicle; which it can be, but really it’s a relationship vehicle. It’s just a way to connect with people.
Jay Owen:
I’m probably kind of an over-sharer in general. I post a lot of stuff. I share a lot of pictures of my kids, all that kind of stuff. It creates relationships, and I have family all over the place, too. My wife’s from England. She’s got family there. I’ve got family all over the country. It’s fun to share that stuff, but it also creates relationships with other people that you might not otherwise just be able to have the face time with.
Jay Owen:
The second thing that I wanted to hit on that you mentioned was you talked about creating videos that sometimes felt like they weren’t very professional, and things like that. One of the kind of ideas floating around out there in the marketing sphere that’s becoming very popular is document over create. The thought process behind that is people just want to see what’s going on. They want to be able to connect with you, and video is so huge right now that even when something is not like of uber high quality that we might prefer it to be, doing something that shows off what’s going on is actually better than not doing anything at all.
Jay Owen:
That’s a hard thing to wrap your head around, especially when you come from a world like I know you do, where you really want excellence in all areas. Then you see something that you’re like, ‘Well, it’s not … I’d rather have a video crew come in,’ but would you? It doesn’t work time-wise, doesn’t work money-wise. It just doesn’t make sense sometimes. Sometimes you can do a high end video in certain instances, but other times just documenting it creates value. Even in this case, we’re videoing this podcast even though we won’t probably publish the whole video. It gives us a way to document what’s going on. We can use some of those pieces to promote this episode later.
Sherry Davidson:
I think one of the things like Peyton did with me, she knows me so well. She knows our business so well. She knows the things I say repeatedly. She literally walked in my office with a flip camera and say, ‘Sit right there, I want you to go through this, this, and this,’ and I could do that easier because actually public speaking, and giving in front of people is not something I feel I’m very good at, or do I enjoy.
Sherry Davidson:
She just catches me off guard, gets me to say what she knows I say anyway. Then, one of the greatest uses for us of the videos was recruiting, because we posted different videos of what it’s like to work there, what our training’s like, what our culture’s like, what agents make working there. When people come in to interview with me, they watch the videos. Things I start trying to tell them, because I forget are in the videos, they’re like, ‘Oh yeah, I know you have the monthly luncheon cookout.’ ‘I know you have line on Wednesdays.’
Jay Owen:
Right.
Sherry Davidson:
I know you,’ … it’s like they watched it, and that’s why they’re there. Had I not gotten that message out on the video, I may have never gotten them to contact me, and have the interview. But I do better when she just walks in, and tells me what to say.
Jay Owen:
Having good people in place is paramount.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
One of the things I think a lot of people have a hard time with, and I certainly did, and it’s still hard work sometimes, is that idea of growing a team. I’d love to hear some of your thoughts and insights on both kind of the hiring process, and even the opposite side, the side we don’t ever really look forward to is the letting go process. How you kind of think through those things when you’re ready to go.
Jay Owen:
Okay, I need to bring somebody on from the team,’ because you have different types of team members, too. You’ve got administrative staff, but then you also have agents. What’s your thought process specifically as it relates to hiring, as to how do you get good people in the door that are going to support your mission, and represent your name well?
Sherry Davidson:
I found it very difficult in interviews to truly get a good read. I’m really pretty good at discerning people’s character, maybe? But you can’t always judge their work ethic and their ability to do hard things. I’m probably not near as formal with it as a lot of people and have quite as much of a process. It’s more of a connection with me. I either connect with them, or I don’t. I feel like they’re a good fit for our team; because our team is very much a team where they support each other, and help each other. If that’s not who you are, and that’s not what you want to be, and the first question you walk in the door asking me the commission split, I know that that’s … You’re just not a great fit for our team.
Sherry Davidson:
Otherwise, I’ve learned to just give people the benefit of the doubt. With real estate as an agent, there is cost. Definitely, there’s cost in bringing anybody on. I find that people I wasn’t quite as sure would be a success, or a huge success, and people that come in, that blow you away with everything they say, don’t always succeed at it. I’m a little more open to letting people go through the training, get their feet on the ground, and see what works. Then, I find that if I know they’re not a fit for whatever reason, I’m quick to go ahead and let them move on; because it’s good for them, and it’s good for us.
Jay Owen:
Right.
Sherry Davidson:
I’ve gotten a lot more open because I can’t … You can’t judge a personality, or that they’re going to be successful. There’s so much more to it than that.
Jay Owen:
Yeah, I think the interviews … they’re good. You have to have an interview. You have to have a conversation, but ultimately, we can all kind of fake it on paper, and fake it in person for a certain period of time. When the rubber hits the road and you actually have to get work done, things change.
Sherry Davidson:
Yeah.
Jay Owen:
I’ve always kind of subscribed to and believed in that idea of hiring attitude over aptitude.
Sherry Davidson:
Yes.
Jay Owen:
I mean people, for the most part, people can be trained to do a lot of different things. There’s plenty of things that I know how to do now that I learned how to do. Very few of us just show up knowing how to do everything. Obviously in certain industries, there’s certain skill sets that are required just for entry. I think that being a team player and having attitude is just … having the right attitude is really a huge, huge bonus.
Jay Owen:
We’ve only got a couple minutes left. One of the things I’d love to wrap up with is any particular resources that you use, kind of for your own personal continuing education as a leader. Maybe it’s a book, or a podcast, or a blog, or a mentor? What do you do so that you’re able to continue to grow and push yourself forward so that you can continue to push your team forward?
Sherry Davidson:
Well, Brian Buffini is a real estate trainer. He’s in California, but he has a podcast. His is the training I use. What I have found listening to his podcast is he interviews many different business owners, types. He books … He sifts through so many books and really only introduces his audience to the best. That’s one, and I mentioned it on your Facebook last night was the ’12 Week Year.’
Sherry Davidson:
Brian Moran wrote a book with someone else and it’s called ’12 Week Year’ Instead of looking at planning and setting goals for a year, you do 12 weeks. 12 weeks is so much more manageable. At the end of the 12 weeks, you take a week off and then you set again. You evaluate where you are at 12 weeks. The thing that was so interesting and it’s really, really helped me is that I set like very simple, maximum three things I want to achieve in the 12 weeks. Then, I set what activities I need to do to get there. At the end of every week, I track those activities. I believe the number is he thinks you should be at least … You should have achieved at least 80% of those activities for that week.
Sherry Davidson:
You’re tracking, and … gaging your process every week. Then, at the end of 12 weeks, you re-evaluate and set more goals. To me, because if you’re doing a year, … like if you’re not even close by June, ‘Well, I still got six months to finish my year.’
Jay Owen:
Right.
Sherry Davidson:
If you’ve only got 12 weeks, you’ve really got to be focused on your priorities, and the activities you need to do. It’s changed my way of thinking. It’s really, really been helpful to me.
Jay Owen:
That’s awesome, and I appreciate you sharing that with us. Well, thank you so much for taking your time today. I know it’s valuable. You are definitely a leader that I respect, in the type of business that I want to model my business after. I hope that this has been helpful for those of you that have been listening today. Make sure you check out our website at BuildingABusinessThatLasts.com. We also have a Facebook group that we started to share conversations, and ideas, and links to books, and podcasts, and all those other kind of things that may be helpful.
Jay Owen:
Sherry, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate it.
Sherry Davidson:
Thank you very much, Jay.
Jay Owen:
That’s a wrap for the very first episode of Building a Business that Lasts. Sherry Davidson really exemplifies the type of person that I want to be able to connect with myself personally, and as a result, that’s the kind of person that I want to bring to you on this podcast. I mean, 28 years in business. Family involved with business. Community leader, humble, gracious, kind, and successful. Just kind of the barometer that points a lot of us in the direction where we need to go. I really appreciate her time today. I hope that it’s been helpful for you.
Jay Owen:
If you know somebody else that you think this might help, I would greatly appreciate it if you would take a minute and share this on your Facebook account, or Twitter account, or anywhere else that you connect with folks at. Also, if you’re interested in signing up for our newsletter, go to BuildingABusinessThatLasts.com, plug in your email address there, and we’ll be doing some special prizes and giveaways. Make sure your email is on our email list at BuildingABusinessThatLasts.com, if you want to have the opportunity to win something fun. We’ll be announcing more details on that soon, but get on the newsletter to be the first to find out about those giveaways. Thank you so much for taking the time to listen all the way to the end of this first podcast.
